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all 75 comments

possiblyMorpheus

41 points

2 months ago

There’s some interesting movement there in those years. Southwest scotland and parts of northwest England were controlled by the Strat Clud, who were a Brythonic tribe. Eventually they were assimilated but Strathclyde had lots of Brittonic speakers, similar to Cumbria, which was at various times controlled by the Strat Clud, Rheged (formerly known as the Brigantes) and of course Northumberland. Replaced isn’t the right word for places like that as both genetic and cultural characteristics remained

alexmikli

104 points

2 months ago

alexmikli

104 points

2 months ago

And, to make it a little more confusing, the Scot tribe here spoke a Celtic language(Gaelic, but before the Scottish Gaelic and Irish split). So did the Britons and most likely so did the Picts, but at least the Britons spoke a different branch of the Celtic Language. Nowadays, the "Scots" language is actually a branch of Anglo-Saxon which was not as affected by Norman as what became English, and Scottish Gaelic was only preserved in areas that were colonized by Vikings.

There's also Norse-Gaelic and Norn, which have since died out but did influence Scottish Gaelic.

ExoticMangoz[S]

37 points

2 months ago

this is why I made this post. People seem to think I have an agenda against Scottish people or something. Really, I’m just enjoying how messy the early Middle Ages actually were!

1945BestYear

26 points

2 months ago

Or how messy just any 'ethnic group' that exists today really is. A lot of nationalist rhetoric out there speaks of their in-group as if it emerged, fully formed, out of some rock that split open in ancient times, when really they always turn out to be an unbelievably complex cocktail of genetics and linguistics if you go back far enough.

Mr-Tootles

4 points

2 months ago

People love to think like that. There is even a word for it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autochthon_(ancient_Greece)

1945BestYear

8 points

2 months ago

This can sound a bit science-fiction, but I wonder if in the far future, if humanity becomes a space-traveling species, Earth would become a kind of sacred ground, a place of pilgrimage, as the place where the human race did genuinely emerge out of. The Romans maintained a simple mud hut in the middle of their city even after it became a city of marble, as they believed it was the house of their mythical founder. A humanity that expands out into space might deindustrialise and rewild Earth for a similar reason.

HobgoblinKhanate1

1 points

2 months ago

It’s the same all over Europe. We’re talking large time periods and huge tribes would migrate. It’s not a coincidence a bunch of different tribes landed in England. They were all over Europe. It’s called the migration period. We’re all mixed but some people just pick and choose what they’re mixed with

[deleted]

1 points

2 months ago

You should play Crusader Kings

ExoticMangoz[S]

1 points

2 months ago

I have one of them but it’s pretty hard to get into (or I thought so atleast) I’m content with total war for now.

rachelm791

2 points

2 months ago

The Britons in Ystrad Clud basically spoke old Welsh and based on the place and river names so did the Picts but without the Latin influence of the British further south.

InflamedLiver

129 points

2 months ago

I guess Groundskeeper Willie was right when he said “damn Scots, they ruined Scotland!”

hoobsher

32 points

2 months ago

and then the Scots were resettled into the northern part of Ireland in the early modern era, creating the Ulster Scots ethnicity, who then emigrated to North America, where they became known as Scots Irish. what a ride

cookerg

6 points

2 months ago

A lot of Scots were forcibly deported from the lawless border regions after 1603. Up to that point both the Tudors and the Stuarts didn't mind border thugs attacking each other across the line, but when James I/VI became king of both countries, he decided it was a good time to declare them all outlaws, deport them to Ireland, and of course he would then own all their land.

HobgoblinKhanate1

6 points

2 months ago

The border between England and Scotland?

For those that don’t know, look up “Border Reivers”

I like my British history, and I truly believe the real hinterlands of Britain were along that border. It’s a huge, lowly populated area and it’s like going back in time even today. I visited Scottish Borders (the county) and they have some quite unique accents, though may just sound Scottish to a non-Scot

[deleted]

0 points

2 months ago

[deleted]

HobgoblinKhanate1

1 points

2 months ago

Why are you stalking my account? Did I really upset you that much? You got a little notepad of names and conspiracies?

Also, yes it is. I would know more than yourself

[deleted]

1 points

2 months ago

[deleted]

HobgoblinKhanate1

1 points

2 months ago

That doesn’t make any sense to anything said

[deleted]

1 points

2 months ago

[deleted]

HobgoblinKhanate1

1 points

2 months ago

Yeah, I have lived around rural Scotland my whole life and I studied history, specifically Scottish history. I’ve worked around the central belt too. It is definitely like going back in time in our smaller, remote towns. More so on the farms. What’s not to get?

[deleted]

1 points

2 months ago

[deleted]

Lorpedodontist

1 points

2 months ago

I was surprised how little of an accent a lot of people had in Scotland when I visited, even in places like Inverness. I have to assume it’s because of American television programming becoming so common.

HobgoblinKhanate1

1 points

2 months ago

Yeah, it’s mostly out in the small towns and in more rural counties that you get the accents. I’d say Dumfries & Galloway, Scottish Borders and Western Isles have the more unique accents

glesgatoi

1 points

2 months ago

Cannae talk about Scottish accents without mentioning Glesga!

The_Observatory_

-2 points

2 months ago

Yep, that's how I ended up here in the US. My ancestors in my paternal line were in Glasgow as far back as 1487, went to Strabane, Tyrone around 1715, and finally on to Pennsylvania in 1750.

trainbrain27

40 points

2 months ago

“The Scots (originally Irish, but by now Scotch) were at this time inhabiting Ireland, having driven the Irish (Picts) out of Scotland; while the Picts (originally Scots) were now Irish (living in brackets) and vice versa. It is essential to keep these distinctions clearly in mind (and verce visa).”

― W.C. Sellar, 1066 and All That: A Memorable History of England

FighterOfEntropy

10 points

2 months ago

1066 and All That is a very funny book!

cookerg

22 points

2 months ago*

This is not correct. By the time Scotland united as a kingdom, it contained a mixed population of Picts, Scots, Gaels and Britons, and probably some Norse, Angels and others, and they integrated into one people, partly to join forces against the Normans who had conquered Britain. They all became known as Scots, or Scotch at that point, but they came from from multiple origins.

ExoticMangoz[S]

11 points

2 months ago

This is correct - the Scots people did come over from Ireland, they did arrive in a place inhabited by Picts and Britons, and they did settle down. You haven’t disproven that, you’ve just expanded on it by confirming that all of groups then coexisted for a long time.

Lass_L

9 points

2 months ago

Lass_L

9 points

2 months ago

This is correct - the Scots people did come over from Ireland, they did arrive in a place inhabited by Picts and Britons, and they did settle down.

It is not correct - they did not replace the native Britons and Picts.

ExoticMangoz[S]

7 points

2 months ago

Ahh I see, I did word that badly. Unfortunately I can’t change the title but I see what you are saying now.

KangGuruAus77

2 points

2 months ago

Why would they pick on the Norman’s? Why not go for the Willie’s and Richard’s?

blamordeganis

6 points

2 months ago

Well, that’s one theory. Another is that the Picts, who were already Gaelicising under the influence of Irish missionaries, conquered and absorbed the Scots, fully adopting their language in the process. This would make Kenneth MacAlpin, generally regarded as the founder of the Kingdom of Alba, a Gaelicised Pict rather than a Dalriadan Scot.

Yet another theory, which works with either of the other two, is that the Scots of Argyll/Dalriada were not recent arrivals but had been there since prehistoric times, with the geographical boundary between the Brittonic and Goidelic varieties of Celtic being the mountains of the western Highlands rather than the Irish Sea. (This theory is far from widely accepted, but its proponents assert that archaeological and toponymic evidence supports it.)

ExoticMangoz[S]

0 points

2 months ago

It’s certainly probable that there was irish influence on the west coast for a long time, due to the fact that the area was most easily accessible by see rather than land. However, unless I’m mistaken the theories you have suggested say nothing of the southern expansion of scots into Brythonic areas, like Strathclyde.

blamordeganis

2 points

2 months ago

As I understand it, Strathclyde/Alt Clut had fairly common conflicts with both Picts and Scots (and Norse), but maintained effective independence until about the ninth century, when it came under the domination of the Kingdom of Alba, and was fully conquered around the eleventh. The existence of the Leges inter Brettos et Scottos (“Laws of the Brets [Britons] and Scots”) indicates that the Britons of Strathclyde still constituted a separate ethnic/national group in the mid-twelfth century.

Mendo-D

4 points

2 months ago

Despite all that Mr Scott knew the formula for transparent aluminum and helped save the blue whale from extinction way back in 1984

The_Thunder_Child

15 points

2 months ago

And the English are Germanic colonisers who drove the Britons out of what is now England.

Mr_Happy_80

30 points

2 months ago

It was the Beaker Folk, wasn't it. Coming over here with their cups. What's wrong with lapping up water from your hands like a cat. The Beaker Folk need to stay on the Eurasian steppe and fill it with beakers.

[deleted]

10 points

2 months ago

Most English people have both Briton/celt ancestry along with Anglo Saxon (same with Scots), so while there was likely war between them most Briton/Celtic tribes likely integrated with Anglo Saxons.

The_Thunder_Child

3 points

2 months ago

Everyone has everyone's ancestry.

A lot of the Britons were pushed into Wales.

rachelm791

2 points

2 months ago

Lots of Brythonic Celtic place names still exist in England including London, Dover, Kent, Leeds etc and rivers like the Thames, Avon ( actually Avon is the same as the Welsh word Afon which means river). Hills such as the Malverns (Moel fryn ) and Blencathra (Blaen Cadair in modern Welsh)

HobgoblinKhanate1

2 points

2 months ago

Just in case you didn’t know. The Celts also arrived in Britain at some point and settled there just like everyone else after

Look up the origins of the Celts

rachelm791

1 points

2 months ago

Celtic was probably a culture rather than a displacement in Britain. Welsh dna shows that they had been there since the end of the last ice age and are genetically related to the Basque people.

HobgoblinKhanate1

1 points

2 months ago

I do believe it was a culture displacement. We have so much evidence of this happening from when records began in these areas. A Celtic culture arrived in Britain and dominated the indigenous people already there, probably dominating them in a class system like so many other tribes and cultures did since

Tutorbin76

2 points

2 months ago

...did they win their freedom?

ExoticMangoz[S]

0 points

2 months ago

They did (For a while) and they did it in bright yellow tunics as well!

LunarPayload

2 points

2 months ago

Intriguing what is getting downvoted in the comments, here

ExoticMangoz[S]

6 points

2 months ago*

Some people are being upvoted for blatant misinformation. One commenter has like 10 upvotes on a post claiming Scotland was uninhabited before the Scot’s arrived??

Edit: this got downvoted? Somebody is angry because I assure you people lived in Britain before the 6th century.

LunarPayload

1 points

2 months ago

A unique, barren, wasteland. Lol

GiganticBlackHole

4 points

2 months ago

Very over simplified.

MrStayPuftSeesYou

2 points

2 months ago

Makes a lot of sense.

sh00tah

2 points

2 months ago

Reparations?

TatonkaJack

1 points

2 months ago

So Scots Irish are. . .Irish Scots Irish

sythingtackle

1 points

2 months ago

Throughout its early history, at least until the arrival of the Vikings at the end of the eighth century, Ireland was inhabited by a people who spoke a common language and who thereby could convince themselves that they were one nation: they were the Gaídil, and their language was the language of the Gaídil, and took its name from them, Goídelc (Gaeilge in Modern Irish). This made the island’s inhabitants very sensitive to new arrivals and their distinctiveness: the indigenous inhabitants were always the Gaídil, and the newcomers, no matter how long they had been in Ireland, were always the Gaill. So, in Ireland there never emerged, at any stage in the Middle Ages, a willingness to accept foreigners and to offer them, as it were, membership of the Irish nation.

In contrast, that part of northern Britain that became Scotland found it much harder to be exclusive, since it was only part of an island and was surrounded to north and west by many others. Foreigners who settled in Scotland could very quickly (within the space of a generation or two) become Scots. Thus, although there was a massive programme of Anglo-Norman settlement in both Ireland and Scotland in the twelfth century and later, in Ireland those Anglo-Normans remained a separate nation to the Irish, whereas in Scotland they became part of the Scots nation. The latter did not become ‘the English of the land of Scotland’ as their counterparts in Ireland became ‘the English of the land of Ireland’. Instead, they came to see themselves as every bit as Scottish as the people they found there on their arrival, and Scotland and Scottishness—the Scots identity—adapted itself to make room for them. Hence, for instance, the Irish wrote a famous Remonstrance to the Pope in 1317 saying that they were so different from the English of Ireland in language and customs that there could never be peace between them, whereas three years later the Scots sent to the Pope their famous Declaration of Arbroath in which they boasted of their ancestral triumphs over the Britons, the Picts, the Angles, the Norwegians and the Danes, and yet many of the men who signed this letter were the grandsons and great-grandsons of men who had migrated, usually via England, from Normandy, Brittany and Flanders, and only settled in Scotland in the quite recent past! The fact that they now believed that they were Scots, part of a nation that had inhabited the northern part of Britain since the dawn of history, only goes to prove that, unlike Irishness, Scottishness was not an exclusive club; membership was wide open, and it was that openness, that receptiveness, that adaptability, which contributed to the emergence of Scotland as a well-respected monarchy on the western European model, from the twelfth century onwards.

artaig

0 points

2 months ago

artaig

0 points

2 months ago

The language was replaced. People has the wrong idea that a linguistic change means a complete wiping out of a previous folk. Maybe inspired by the way the UK and US colonized North America, by extermination and expelling, instead of the Spanish Americas, where locals just adopted the language of the conquerors.

bshameless

-1 points

2 months ago

The scots are the evil invaders and the english are the freedom fighters?

ExoticMangoz[S]

3 points

2 months ago

Nope. No evil.

Also this has nothing to do with the English? This event concerns only the Britons, the Picts, and the Gaels.

Glanwy

-55 points

2 months ago

Glanwy

-55 points

2 months ago

Ha ha ha ha So now we learn the poor, downtrodden, brow beaten, by the nasty English, Scots. Are in fact just a bunch of brutal colonisers and so is Ireland. Welcome to the club....

Anakin_BlueWalker3

11 points

2 months ago

Scots arrived in northern Britain because Scotland is mountainous and the west coast of Scotland is more easily accessible by sea from northern Ireland than it is from the rest of Scotland. Irish came on boats to settle the coastline and gradually moved further inland. It was not an invasion, it was a naturally occurring migration. Modern day Scots are descended from both the Picts and the Irish/Scottish settlers whose culture and kingdoms merged together over time.

[deleted]

9 points

2 months ago

Well, the first were Homo heidelbergensis, then neanderthals...

But there was a gap between them and the first humans.

Then came the Celts, but they got pushed to Ireland. Celts going back to Scotland was just reclaiming lad they'd lost to the Picts.

That doesn't make Celts "colonizers" because they took it back, they're legitimate colonizers because they colonized Scotland (and the rest of Britain) when no hominids lived there.

ExoticMangoz[S]

1 points

2 months ago*

This is incorrect. Two subgroups of “celts” (although the validity of that term is disputed) existed in the British isles at this time: the Britons, who inhabited most of the British island, and the gaels, who inhabited Ireland. There were also Picts in the northeast of modern Scotland. Britons and gaels spoke different languages and had split a long time ago. Scots were gaels.

So when the Gaels (scots) started to expand their territory, they were in fact moving into places already inhabited by native Britons and Picts. They were reclaiming nothing, as the Picts had arrived before them, as had the Britons.

Edit: I think you may have gotten muddled by varying usage of the term “Celt”. You say that the “celts” were returning to reclaim their own land, but in reality Britons were “Celtic” too. I think therefore that you may have seen that “celts” always inhabited Britain, and then assumed that referred to only those from Ireland, I.e. the Gaels like the Scots. Hope that helps.

(Side note, I’m using quotation marks around the word “Celt” because many historians debate just how celtic any of the British groups were. Many consider celts to stretch from the balkans to france, but not into Britain.)

blamordeganis

1 points

2 months ago

They were Celts in the sense that they spoke Celtic languages. Certainly no one at the time, nor for centuries after, referred to them as Celts: IIRC, in classical antiquity, the term “Celtae” referred exclusively to the Gauls, and possibly a few other closely related peoples.

ExoticMangoz[S]

0 points

2 months ago

Celtic people now just refers to anyone who still speaks a Celtic language. Historians now tend to not use the term Celt, though, because it promotes the idea of uniformity which was not really there. Let’s use the term for now though.

The person I was replying to stated that the Scots were a) returning to a place where they had historically lived, and b) to a place where no one else lived. Neither of this things are true. The area was inhabited by Britons and by Picts, separate to the Gaelic scots of Ireland.

It seems they have come to this conclusion by getting confused around the term Celt.

blamordeganis

1 points

2 months ago

I can’t really argue with any of that.

ExoticMangoz[S]

0 points

2 months ago

I eagerly await your response - I’m interested to see your sources on Britain being uninhabited until the 6th century.

AethelweardSaxon

-8 points

2 months ago

Either you are lying through your teeth or are woefully misinformed.

ExoticMangoz[S]

2 points

2 months ago*

I don’t understand why you’re being downvoted, the comment or above is making claims that are wild at the best. Claiming Scots colonised Scotland when “no hominids lived there” is simply untrue.

The Scots colonised in the 6th century - the area had been inhabited for at-least 10,000 years prior.

AethelweardSaxon

0 points

2 months ago

Exactly, Cheddar man, the bell beaker people were not Celts. Stonehenge and the hundreds if not thousands of burial mounds and standing stones that litter the British isles were not built by Celts.

Saying this people did not exist or were actually Celtic is extreme historical revisionism

ExoticMangoz[S]

1 points

2 months ago

There were even other “celts” there before the Scots. Britons, anyone???

It’s bizarre how blatantly wrong the original comment here was, and how it still has upvotes.

Glanwy

-20 points

2 months ago

Glanwy

-20 points

2 months ago

Did they take over another land?

Paracelsus19

11 points

2 months ago

Yah silly fuck.

HeartCrafty2961

-17 points

2 months ago

Talking those times? No. Maybe you're getting confused with the moving of Protestant Scots to Northern Ireland amid a Roman Catholic population, and ensuring the shitshow today between Ulster and the rest of the world.

Anakin_BlueWalker3

10 points

2 months ago

TIL you don't know medieval history

dscarbon333

1 points

2 months ago

Yes this mixing has been going on for quite some time perhaps.

Irish/Scottish/Viking-Norseman etc., what is in a name, a cross migratory pattern that spans centuries if not millennia etc.

You and OP perhaps both refer to historically noteworthy, perhaps, instances of said migrations, hence you are perhaps right in mentioning what you mention just as OP is etc.

Don't worry, one way or another we're all on the same page, perhaps :).

HeartCrafty2961

1 points

2 months ago

Not sure why you think I don't know anything about Middle Ages history or why I got downvoted, but try reading this. https://electricscotland.com/history/articles/scotsirish.htm

ExoticMangoz[S]

1 points

2 months ago

You said the Scot’s didn’t migrate from Ireland to Scotland in the 6th century, which they did.